Posts by moggy lover

10

ROMANS 8:18-25 PROVES 2 CLASS WT TEACHING.. SAYS THE WIFE

by whereami in

can someone help me here?.

maybe narkissos or laolaia can help?.

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moggy lover

I'm not entirely sure what point your wife is attempting to make by quoting Ro 8:18-25, but it can't be to establish that there are two classes of Christian believers, because this is certainly not being discussed here.

Chap 8 of Romans is a discussion of what True Christians call the Doctrine of Sanctification and the specific role that the Holy Spirit plays in this regard. From vs1 to about vs 25 Paul discusses the believer's bondage to sin and its attendant trait- death. Before the believer became a believer he/she was a slave to sin, and consequently walked according to the flesh, which is a path that leads to death. [vss 1-6] However through the grace of God, He has imparted to the believer the Holy Spirit, who by indwelling the believer impels him/her to walk according to the spirit and consequently to life. Unforttunately the Watchtower knows nothing about this doctrine of the In-dwelling Spirit.

When the Holy Spirit thus dwells in the believer [vs 11] He brings about the miraculous work of redefining the believer according to the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh. This in turn leads to the believer being adopted as a "Son Of God" and like any child who is privileged to inherit the estate of the parent, the believer becomes an heir of God and fellow heir of Christ. [vs 17]

Now in all this section there is only one "class" of believer mentioned. This "class" is referred to in the first person plural personal pronoun: "us" or "we". The Christian believer cannot read this section, as Watchtower followers do, and apply the third person pronoun: "they" "them" to the text. Either you read it and believe, or you don't read it. But to read it and apply it opportunistically, and selectively, simply because of a precognitive requirement of Watchtower theology is to make a mockery of the Word of God. Having constantly being fed on the monotonous and propagandizing literature of the Watchtower, the Watchtower follower has this remarkable ability to apportion sections of scripture to make it apply as and when it aligns with Watchtower theology. Ultimately that is the epitome of Watchtower success in brainwashing.

For instance the Watchtower follower will read vs 12 which says: "We are under obligation not to live in accord with the flesh" and the "we" bit refers to the individual Watchtower follower, but mystically, this "we" by some arcane mutation, transmutes into "them" just three vss further. Thus a dichotomy is strained out of the text and forced into a preconceived mould to prop up Watchtower theology.

We now come to vss 18-25. For reasons that Paul does not specify, not just humanity and the terrestrial abode we all inhabit, but all the physical universe became enmeshed in this decline into decay and corruption, with the whole "creation" being subject to "futility" not of its own accord, but simply because God subjected it to this dissolution. Thus slowly, not just all humanity, but all creation is dying, and slowly running down.

The expression in vs 19, "eager expectation" [NW "T"] "anxious longing" [NASB] is from the Greek "apek-dech-omai" and is used seven times in the NT and every time refers to Christ's Coming Again [Ro 8:19, 23,25, 1Cor 1:7, Gal 5:5, Phil 3:20, and Heb 9:28]. Thus,"we" the regenerated [born again] sons of God, will be "revealed" when Christ returns for His own. "We" will share His glory, but always as inferiors, and all creation will be restored to its pristine glory as originally envisioned by God. All hope then, not just for "us" but all physical creation, rests not in some "kingdom" or the "vindication of Yahweh's name" but in Christ coming again. Physically, tangibly, corporeally, and personally.

As can be seen then there is only two classes mentioned in Ro 8:

1 "We" who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and made "sons of God" by adoption. [8:16]

2 Those who are in the flesh. These ones cannot please God. [8:8]

Unfortunately for Watchtower followers there is NO third group. Those who are in the flesh, but who because they prostate themselves before the "spirit-directed" organization, can please God.

49

Debunking the WTS view of apostasy

by Awakened at Gilead in

just created a new video that uses the bible to show how jw's claims about apostates lack biblical basis.. your comments are welcome.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eg219nkire.

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moggy lover

The problem that we have when discussing "apostasy" and "apostates" is twofold:

1 Who can lay claim to being the true inheritors of the ancient Jewish tradition that is encompassed in the OT?

2 Does the word "apostate" as understood in the the stylized patois of the Watchtower, actually occur in the OT? [There is no problem about it occurring in the NT because we know it occurs twice]

1 To suggest, as the Watchtower leadership suggests, that they and they alone can singularly wrap themselves around the mantle of the OT is not just sheer arrogance, but it spills over into the ancient Greek concept of "hubris", defined in their vocabulary as: "wanton arrogance that leads to violence against opposers, an insufferable arrogance accrued from claims to divine exclusivity" [paraphrased from Liddell and Scott Lexicon] In other words, anyone making claims of such insularity is dangerously bordering on blasphemy.

To make these claims solely on the basis of their use of the tri-syllabic mongrelized word "jehovah" which has an etymology that is neither Hebrew nor English, is puerile to say the least, especially when you consider the fact that there are several Sacred Name sects out there, most of whom are more closely linked to the OT system than the Watchtower, and whose use of Yahweh is more accurate than anything the Watchtower can match.

The Watchtower system is a proto-fascist ideal which replaces the freedom that the individual has with God, with a centrally controlled organizationally infused dynamic that supposedly serves the interests of all. Such an imperialism may be regarded as benevolent by the majority of the more somnolent of the movement, but nevertheless it is still an imposition, a manifestation of raw power. Dissenting from such systematized and institutionalized piety, is regarded as apostasy only by those cocooned in the veiled facade of Watchtower doctrinal probity.

It must also be remembered that the Watchtower leadership expresses its authority in a modern Americanized jargon with its metaphors derived from the American pop culture of the 1960s, and not from OT idiom. No Sabbath is observed, no tithes paid, and no festivals observed, all part of the warp and woof of OT cultural idiom. The Watchtower links to the OT, then, are tenuous, at best. So any "apostate" from the OT system must be a subject of interpretation, not of pre-cognitive functional subjectivity.

2 Should the word "apostate" or "apostasy" occur in the OT? The Watchtower wunderkind, Freddy Franz, whose legacy, the NW "T" is constantly being defended by his successors, certainly thought so. He introduced it 16 times in his "translation" of the OT. All these occurrences are from the Heb word "hho'neph" and its cognates. The word is clearly defined by Strong, Gesenius, and BDB as: Impiety, godlessness.

The NIV consistently translates this word as: "Ungodliness" as does the NASB. The NLT has the same.

As one can see, the use of "apostasy" in the OT, so useful to facilitating the Watchtower agenda of self-righteous posturing is entirely bogus. An "apostate" is one who has abandoned a certain regimentation which either he or his peers once regarded as "truth", while the OT word is referring to those who never had any spiritual dimension in their lives in the first place and who cared nothing about it anyway.

It is matter of scholarly debate whether the Heb vocabulary, as used in the OT had a word for "apostasy". The NASB for instance uses the word "apostasy" four times in the OT to translate the Heb "Meshubah" the meaning of which is interpretive. It can mean "faithlessness" or a"a turning away" etc, as is found at Jer 8:5. NIV has "turned away" and the NW "T" has "unfaithful" To confuse matters, Greek speaking Jews who translated the OT into the Greek LXX, used the word "apostrepso" which can mean "to return" as to an original fold, or lit, as Adam "returned" to dust. The debate continues.

The Watchtower appropriation of this word to refer to those who dissent from their structural authorization, is at least pretentious, if not, utterly mad.

19

More than 144,000 by end of 1st Century? Reference sought.

by Open mind in

the search function here isn't what it used to be.. can anyone direct me to a reference that shows christianity grew to more than 144,000 converts by 98 ce?.

intuitively it seems like a no-brainer, but something better than gut instinct would be helpful.. om.

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moggy lover

There is simply no way that we can give anything more than a vague estimate of Christian numbers by the end of the 1C AD. At least one ancient document in our possession tells of the growth in numbers of Christians, and this was written some years before the end of the century by Pliny the Younger the Governor of the Roman province of Bithynia to Emperor Trajan.

"Many of every age and social class and even of both sexes are being called to trial. Not just the cities but villages and even rural areas have been invaded by the infection of their superstition" [Epistulae 10.96] Although he does not report any numbers, his reference to the presence of Christians throughout the Province implies a recognizable status given to this persecuted minority. It must also be remembered that Bithynia was one of the more remote provinces of Empire, and is therefore suggestive of growth in even greater numbers elsewhere. Although as the NT shows Christianity started as an urban phenomenon, it soon grew by increments and missionary activity to the countryside and involved all sections of society.

Dr Samuele Bacchiocchi writing in the Andrews University historical site has estimated that by the end of the 1C AD the population of Christians had grown to about 1% of the population of the Empire, which was in the region of 100M-180M. This would place the numbers of Christians living then to about 1M. The World Christian Encyclopedia [published in 1982] confirmed this number by suggesting a more precise percentage of .6% of the Empire's population.

The phenomenal growth of Christianity, which as we have seen has been attested to by at least one contemporary historian of the 1C AD, can probably be attributed to two factors, one of which is not acknowledged by the academic community. The first of these was, of course persecution, including the one by Domitian toward the end of the C AD which, incidentally, caused John's exile to Patmos. The other is the role of the Holy Spirit whose Divine Providence oversaw the growth of believers in Christ.

By Acts chap 3 the numbers of believers had grown from 120 to 3000 [what is that? 450% increase?] Then, just one chapter later, in Acts 4:4 we are told of a further 5000 men who were baptised. We would need to factor in at least the same number of women who are not named, making some extra 10 000 in this short time. This means that within the passage of days of the founding of the Christian community we are having to deal with at least 13 000 people who became believers. To suggest, as the Watchtower suggests that somehow this miraculous growth ceased at this time and numbers were more prosaic, is to misread the authority of the Holy Spirit. And it is to manipulate not just the miraculous in the early years of Christianity, which the Watchtower supposedly recognizes, but is also a deliberate attempt at fiddling with figures merely to prop up a doctrinal aberration.

According to the Watchtower's own ignorant theology an "apostasy" developed at the turn of the first century leading to countless people having given their lives in vain during monstrous persecutions of extreme brutality. Only an estimated 10% of those torn asunder by wild animals and gladiators is suggested to be a true number of real believers. This is but a barbaric reaction to the memory of people whose blood has stained the pages of history, and reflects the same monstrous attitude that was manifest by the bloodthirsty spectators who had no sensitivity to the death of others. Whatever the Cause, giving one's life for it makes one a True Believer.

Countless Muslims have been killed by Hindus, and countless more Hindus have been slain by countless other Muslims all in the name of Belief. Whether we acknowledge the verity of such belief or not, acknowledgment must be made at the absolute commitment of belief, of those who permit their blood to be poured out. No amount of idiotic gainsaying, in the name of dogmatic bigotry can erase that depth of commitment.

For the Watchtower, the figures simply do not add up.

23

News flash !!!!!! ......"Blondie completes another year "

by caliber in

jw
friends

it's her birthday folks ... let her know how you feel !.

.

moggy lover

Hope you have a lovely day

Cheers

32

How do you respond to the JW statement: "The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

well?.

.

bf.

moggy lover

Did the 1C AD have congregations? Yes. So that is not the right question. The right question to ask is:

How were the congregations arranged? Were they hierarchical as the Watchtower congregations are today? No. There is every evidence in the NT that each congregation was an independent unit with its own locally elected elders. The congregations were scattered communities of believers in Christ whose common bond was a love for each other that came as a result of being "in Christ"

Did they have elders? Yes. But again the question is: How were these elders appointed?

At 1 Tim :1-7 Paul gave an outline of what qualified a man to be an elder. These instructions were given to Timothy, who was himself an elder evidently in the city of Ephesus. [1Tim 1:3] so that when he came to appoint them he would know what these qualifications were. In turn, as this letter was distributed among the congregations, the local elders would have these instructions. To conclude that Paul was an elistist member of a "GB" is an absurd allusion that has no reccomendations from the NT. Timothy himself had been appointed by the older men of his congregation by the laying on of hands [1 Tim 4:14]

He was not:

1 Appointed by a "Governing Body" centrally set up in one location, evidently in Jerusalem. We know that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the Christians were thus scattered from there. As near as we can determine, the first letter to Timothy was written about 63-65 AD and the second about 65-67 AD [NASB Study Bible Notes] So the "GB" if there was one, would have been rather busy at this time trying to preserve itself rather than keep tabs on a youngster from Ephesus.

2 Appointed by a traveling overseer representing a "GB" on the recommendation of the local body.

Did they have Deacons? Yes. And evidently Deaconesses to. [Rom 16:1] Phoebe is referred to as a "minister" [NASB, NW "T"] "Deaconess" [CB Williams NT] The word is the feminine form for the male "ministerial servant" at 1 Tim 3:8, which is why the NASB Study Bible says: "When church related as here, the term probably refers to a specific office, ie a woman deacon or deaconess." [page 1658]

Did they preach? Yes. But:

1 There is no evidence whatsoever that it was incumbent on all in the local congregation to evangelize. Eph 4:1 specifically says that Christ gave some to be evangelists.

2 When giving the qualifications for elders and deacons in the local churches Paul pointedly ignored the preaching work, emphasizing instead the empathy the prospective elder had for the fellowship of believers. Elders were not for the purpose of making converts, but building up the local fellowship.

3 There is not a single instance where people became believers as a result of a door-to-door ministry. Every time we see Paul or Peter or even Phillip preach, it was always in the open, in the public. The early Christians only came to people's homes when invited to do so. [Acts 10:24, 16:34] They never entered a home uninvited. Using texts such as Acts 5:42 and 20:20 is straining the plain meaning of the text. The idiom used for "From house to house" actually is better translated as "privately".

Hope this helps.

14

A New English Translation of the Septuagint - Book Download link

by VM44 in

a new english translation of the septuagint.

oxford university press | 2007-11-02 | isbn: 0195289757 | 1027 pages | pdf | 6 mb.

translated from the hebrew between the third and first centuries b.c., the septuagint became the bible for greek-speaking jews and was widely cited by early christians.

moggy lover

I am having the same problem in trying to open the file. Evidently it is in a zipped form that requires a program that I do not have.

Cheers.

14

My thoughts on the memorial.....yea I did go

by Soledad in

jw
friends

it was dull.

i could have sworn that i heard the same talk 20 years ago.

witnesses look tired, bored, lifeless.

moggy lover

Very well written post. Keep up the good work.

14

Help Needed for articles involving Re-Creation...

by Tuesday in

hi folks,.

i don't have access to a wt library cd-rom, so i was wondering if i could get some assistance.

the theory of resurrection, where every single part of a person is re-created (their memories are remembered by god, they are then re-created into a re-created body), someone from my youtube channel challenged me regarding articles in the wt or awake that state this.

moggy lover

The Watchtower system has an extremely well tuned editorial policy that sifts out any offending terminology, or phraseology that are likely to embarrass the leadership. Hence you will not find, especially among the later issues of Watchtower publications such words as "recreate" or even the latest stumbling block for the GB: "the generation of 1914" [Since 1995, the words "generation" and "1914" are never permitted to be in congruity]

However there is the occasional slip, and in connection with what you asked, I can only find one time when the word "recreate" slipped past the editorial oversight committee. This was the 1977 publication "Life Does Have A Purpose" which on page 175 makes this comment:

"God will accurately recreate each individual with his entire life pattern"

Hope this helps.

22

What was the accepted translation before the NWT?

by tenyearsafter in

i seem to be drawing a blank, but i can't recall what the the "accepted" translation for jw's was pre-nwt?

if it was the kj or one of the other translations favored by christendom, how did the wts work around the translation errors "corrected" by the nwt?...john 1:1, extensive use of jehovah in nt, etc.

?.

moggy lover

Hi, 10YA: Here are the readings:

Jo 1:1 a The text itself: "In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God".

The Interlinear: "In a beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and a god was the Word". [My mum's old copy has a neatly underlined notation saying "compare with original" in the margins.]

Jo 8:58: "Indeed I assure you, Before Abraham was born, I am he"

Acts 20:28: "Take heed to yourselves therefore and to All the FLOCK, among whom the HOLY SPIRIT made you Overseers, to feed the CHURCH of GOD which he acquired by the blood of his own" [The capitals are in the original and refer to a glossary at the back of the book where these words are defined.]

Rev 19:1 "After these things, I heard a loud voice as of a great crowd in HEAVEN saying: "Hallelujah! the SALVATION and the GLORY and the POWER to our God"

Hope this helps.

22

What was the accepted translation before the NWT?

by tenyearsafter in

i seem to be drawing a blank, but i can't recall what the the "accepted" translation for jw's was pre-nwt?

if it was the kj or one of the other translations favored by christendom, how did the wts work around the translation errors "corrected" by the nwt?...john 1:1, extensive use of jehovah in nt, etc.

?.

moggy lover

According to the testimony of my mum, the Watchtower followers in the early years evidently went through three phases:.

1 In the early years, prior to 1902, the Watchtower followers did not really do any mass evangelism, since this was considered the province of "colporteusrs" or full time reps of the Watchtower. These used the KJV, with Watchtower authorized "explanations" printed at the back like an innocuous appendix. This appendix/explanation contained the Watchtower Received Interpretations of texts such as Jo 1:1, 20:28, etc.

2 From 1902, the Watchtower followers used a sort of Hybrid Bible. They used the KJV for the OT, but stitched to it was the Emphatic Diaglott, the translation of the NT that Russel purchased in that year.

3 In 1944, the Watchtower purchased the printing rights to the ASV Bible, which naturally was better for than the KJV, since this version used "Jehovah" consistently in the OT. Now they carried a new kind of Hybrid Bible. It had the ASV OT, and neatly stitched into it was the ED for the NT.

About the only people who were pleased with this arrangement were the book binders who were kept busy keeping up with the changing light of the Watchtower. Nice little earner for some.